by: Michael Steffes
As some have noted, the Hawks really are showing a lot of interest in all the 2nd tier quarterbacks. Many are wondering if the Hawks would really waste their visits creating the appearance of interest or are they really thinking about finding Matt's replacement. His contract is up in 2010, three seasons from now. Many of you have seen my take on this during various discussions, but I thought an in depth examination was overdue. Lets take a look....
I am on record as saying that this is a smokescreen and I stand by it. As you know, I often use a financial lens to help analyze things and in this case, that is very telling.
The Hawks have 3 QBs under contract already for 2008. Obviously they could cut one, but they haven't even seen Frye in a training camp yet. Why force yourself to cut him even if he looks good in camp. Also, you would lose all trade leverage, because other teams know that four QB's is a waste of a roster spot to everyone but John Gruden. Frye actually holds a lot more value than a rookie because he started for a year and a half in this league and he comes cheaper too.
To draft the QB's they prefer out of the ones they have worked out, it is likely they would have to use their 1st round pick, as all of those QBs are late first to early 2nd round picks. A first round pick carries with it a multi million dollar bonus and at most usually a five year deal. We would be paying a lot of money to someone who MAY be the guy 3 years from now. Plus, before his 2nd year starting you have to start thinking about an extension, unless you want to risk losing a guy you have devoted so much time too. This will be Green Bay's dilemma if Rodgers struggles this year, just watch.
Another thing is that taking a first round QB does nothing to further the goal of winning in Holmgrens last year. If the team is thinking TE with a high pick, the best thing they can possibly do to get value, is move back 5-10 spots. If only 1 of the teams looking for an early 2nd round QB thinks we might take one, then maybe we have a trade partner, which is the most difficult part of moving backwards.
This is smart strategic thinking, and the only thing it costs is a couple of visits that we would usually use on 7th round or undrafted possibilities. The gain is that they get the player that will help the most, this year, in the appropriate draft position, along with extra picks. The risk vs. reward here is substantially in the Hawks favor.
Finally, Seneca Wallace is also signed through 2010. So most likely, he will be part of the QB depth chart until then. Probably 2nd on game days so they can use him in special packages. Because of this, the smart move is to allow the team to evaluate Frye after a full season and compare his development to the rookie class. He could be a cheap alternative as insurance until the team can make a better assessment of how Hasselbeck is aging and when is the right time to think rookie. The one mistake this team shouldn't make is putting a 1st round (or early 2nd) quarterback on the roster that forces their hand when Hasselbeck's contract expires. No reason to push him out if he is still a top flight QB, or to allow a first round QB to reach the end of his rookie deal unused.
One other thing you have heard me note is that I think the team will want Jim Mora in charge when they choose Matt's successor. There is no evidence I can point to here. It is just a gut feeling I guess, based on what seems to stem from how QB's and the coaches who draft them are inexplicably linked in this league. Now maybe Mora could be instrumental in picking a QB this year, but I would think Mora is going to be pretty quiet in the war room, if only to avoid causing any rifts for the upcoming year.
Now you have a detailed look at where my beliefs that Hawks are not really serious about drafting a quarterback come from. One thing I most certainly believe when it comes to NFL teams and the upcoming draft is, that when there is smoke, is isn't always fire.
They might be moving Seneca to WR and drafting the 3rd QB/developmental guy.
ReplyDelete-Motojunkie
Seneca is the one guy who has actually been here and knows the system well enough to run the offense competently in case Hass goes down, so I would think they need him to at least work as a QB even if he plays in special packages. Which I am in favor of him doing more of.
ReplyDeleteThis is very curious tho. I do agree with you. But it opens one's eyes a bit. What if they are thinking QB? I would see it as a waste, but what if Mike Holmgren, the great QB guru that he is, is telling the organization that one of the guys they are bringing in is just TOO GOOD to pass up on. I don't know what he is thinking.
ReplyDeleteI still think it is a smokescreen, but if we DO draft a QB in the 1rst or 2nd, it must be because of something that person did to prove he cannot be passed on.
If Seneca Wallace was all that at WR, there is no way he wouldn't have been used more last year with the rash of injuries the Seahawks had going at that position.
ReplyDeleteSeneca is a good insurance policy, but I think Frye is more of guy you could mold into a starting QB. His days with the Browns were a joke, but I'm not going to discount what I think he might be able to contribute down the road.
FancyPants
Nice analysis.
ReplyDeleteI always thought the best time to look for a qb is when you don't need one. The position is so difficult to fill that smart gm's are always looking for one.
If you can pick up the next Tom Brady on the second day of the draft, who cares if you have Bledsoe.
I am not saying this just so I can get blasted from other people, it's just MY opinion, so please bear with me if you disagree (which some of you will) but I have no faith in Seneca leading this team anywhere if Matt goes down. I know he went 2-2 when Hasselbeck was out and he made some decent big plays, but he's also the same guy who "graduated" from Iowa State and then came here and took CC classes b/c he couldn't learn well (bad wording) and then we're playing KC on the road (and this is just ONE example of why I have no faith in him) and it's 4th and 15 LATE in the game and he dumps it off to our slowest position player (I love Mack, but he's no Barry Sanders) who you know damn well won't gain 15 yards.
ReplyDeleteKind of like that game in the late 80s (I think) where Kemp threw the ball late in the game out of the end zone on a 4th down. If it was incomplete, we lose. At least throw the ball up for grabs and give your guys a chance! That's why guys like Kemp and Wallace suck and aren't starting QBs, or if they are they never will be any good.
I have been very vocal of how I'd like us to take BPA DL (several, at least) but I actually have no problem if we take Brian Brohm. I know he will cost more and we won't get anything out of him while he's on the bench. But franchise QBs like Matt don't grow on trees. We are so lucky right now, because some teams have QBs that totally suck. Romo rode the pine for 4 years before taking over - that worked out pretty well (even though he wasn't paid much, where Brohm would be paid more). The Franchise tag also can pretty much also prevent Brohm from leaving after he does take over and performs well. If you have a chance to grab a franchise guy, you need to look out for what's also best for the future of the franchise.
Timmy has done a nice job of taking this team into the draft without major holes (I know we need a TE, but Jeb will be a fine 1-year band-aid). My only complaint is lack of DL depth.
bobbyk
Come on, Davidson!
ReplyDeleteThe fact is Matt is class and at his peak right now.
ReplyDeleteBut you need to plan ahead. Maybe they've seen enough of Fry to decide he wont be good enough?
Maybe they plan to move Seneca to a rather inexperienced looking WR corp?
Or most likely than anything, maybe they just accept they cant neglect the QB issue until it bites them on the arse, and are just taking a look at the options this year and seeing if they like anyone enough to take them as the QB of the future.
If they see someone who is THAT good, why not take him now? Would you pass just to give Charlie Fry a go? Course not.
If they dont see someone they like, address it again next year.
Matt wont go on forever. This is just sound business like sense to keep an eye on the QB situation.
And if someone like Brian Brohm fits the bill and is there in round one, maybe they will take him.
I will say something though...
It might be Holmy's last year, but they aren't going to put all their eggs in one basket to win it all now. They will do what they would have done if Holmy was here for another 10 years.
That said... Every single one of Ruskells previous first rounders was starting in his second year. Why? Because it would be a waste of their talent to have them ride the pine for 4 years. So if they want to not neglect the qb situation, they can take a mid rounder and develop him, not a first round pick.
ReplyDeletePeople act is if this is the last year ever that a QB will be in the draft, Qb's like Henne, Brohm, and Flacco come out every year, and every year people are in love with them. Last year it was Beck and Stanton and who ever else I am thinking about who hasn't made an impact.
Next year there will be plenty of QB's who have equal and similar skill sets. Every year there are!
Nice post. bobbyk brings up many valid arguments in contrast to Michael's detailed topic. Now, if only I had ESP...
ReplyDeleteNote that Brohm would have been the #1 QB if he came out last year.
I like what I hear of Flacco's arm.
Charlie Frye is a turdball.
Side note: Tebow? We'll see. I happen to like Jake Locker better. Not that I'm biased. ;)
Michael, your analysis is sound and you're probably right on track. Using 10% of our workouts to possibly help us get into a situation where we can trade down is very smart. You are also right that 2nd tier type qb's are available every year. That said, I will be a bit paranoid about the QB situation until we get a successor, remember the 90's.
ReplyDeleteYung Hawk
Just the thought of Jeff Kemp makes me want to puke. Stouffer, McGuire, Mirer...yack!
ReplyDeleteI understand and sympathize with the fears, but there is new sheriff in town. By all accounts he is a talented man, surely he will be able to find a capable QB when needed. Not once has he let us down yet. We needed a middle linebacker, we got Lofa. We needed a CB, Jennings seems OK. We needed a DT, we got Mebane. When we NEED a QB, at worst we will get a decent starter, or knowing Ruskell, maybe 3 and a new coach to boot!
ReplyDeleteDraft a TE early (Davis?) to give us the personnel Holmgren and the team need for our West coast Offense. I was thinking of maybe grabbing Chad Henne in the later rounds. I think Henne will slide down aways and he might be a good fit for the Hawks. A leader for 4 years at Michigan (A Ruskell Guy?), while he also had a great Bowl game vs. Florida and a good Senior Bowl showing (much better that Flacco and any other quarterback in my opinion). As for Frye, I think he's garbage. He does have experience, but I don't see him as the leader of our offense for the future. Especially after being dismissed as he was from Cleveland.
ReplyDeletegreat Kerney quote
ReplyDeletehttp://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=wickersham_seth&id=3315138
It's stupid to have a 1st round pick sitting on the bench in the second year; unless it's a QB.
ReplyDeleteI agree but Holmgren tends to pick quarterbacks anyways such as Mark Brunell, Aaron Brooks and David Greene but it wouldn't be before the third round.
ReplyDeleteBobbyK--you cannot judge whether a guy will make a good starting qb on 4 games in his second season. Seneca sucked in the KC game due to 40 family members being in attendance--he was showing off, and it cost him.
ReplyDeleteSteve Young sucked for the Bucs and it took 9 years before he got a full season to start.
hasselbeck needed two false-start years and a full season starting before he became a competent qb. Without Holmgrens ego and faith in Hass, the guy never would have become a starting NFL qb.
Rick Mirer looked pretty good right off the bat, and did ok for a couple years...then disintegrated.
Wallace has not played wr for any length of time. He is a fanstastic athlete and could learn, but it would take at least a year. He has the talent, but lacks skill. But skill can be learned, talent cannot.
Wallace may never be a great QB. But no one can tell untill he gets a year or two to start. Playing QB is the hardest position in the NFL, it takes more than a couple games to feel comfortable, no matter how much you practice.
Thats why backups in their first couple of games make dumb mistakes like Seneca and Kemp. If you remember, Hass has made many of mistakes just as stupid in his early days...so give Wallace the benefit of the doubt.
Wallace has a learning disability, he isnt stupid. Some of the greatest minds in the world suffered from learning disabilities, and even Einstein failed high school math.
Wallace isnt Einstein, but he isnt Ryan Leaf either.
-SlaveToTheBusinessman
I personally feel that it is a smoke screen, but what about this... Maybe TR is in love with one of the 3 so he brings all 3 in to divert the competition. We trade back with possibly atlanta, miami or someone else with 2 2nd rounders or a snd and a 3rd to take a shot at the 1 QB we do like. We then wouldn't be paying the inflated 1st round salary and would still have atleast another 2nd for a TE we like. Or, if our trade doesn't land us that QB we can still pick up a TE and DL like Laws. Just a thought, maybe a situational smoke screen
ReplyDeleteCTS
From what I remember, Wallace doesn't want to play receiver. He chose QB and wanted to continue to learn the position. I think he's quick and with his ability to know what Hass is looking for when reading zones, he could be dangerous on 3rd downs. But unless something changes, he'll probably continue to wait his turn at QB. -JR25
ReplyDeleteSlave...
ReplyDeleteThat wasn't Seneca's second year in the league.
Kemp was an older veteran at the time who had prior starting experience.
Sometimes people with all the talent in the world just suck.
Sometimes people who shouldn't be good end up being good (Chuck Darby over a first rounder like Jimmy Kennedy).
I see what you mean and understand what you're saying, I just happen to disagree. We both love the 'Hawks so that's all that matters!
bobbyk
It's always a scary thought, Matt's future with the team. I have a man-crush on that guy, he is an all-around great guy/football player. He is not getting younger, but he is still solid. It's never too early to find a player to mold into any position. I mean, Matt rode the pine behind one of the greatest quarterbacks and look how he ended up. Any draft pick we sign to learn behind Hasselbeck will be just fine in my opinion. Maybe we can find ourselves a Derek Anderson, he seems to have done just fine with the Browns
ReplyDeleteGreg from Portland
No worries Bobbyk, I dont need someone to agree with me to enjoy trading ideas back and forth. The Hawks are looking good for next year. Super Bowl bound, baby!
ReplyDelete-Slave
John David Booty. Enough said.
ReplyDeleteI think JDB will be equally as good as anyone of the quarterbacks taken in the second. If the Hawks took him second day, I think I could live with that. At that point, his cost would probably equal that of Frye's too, which makes the move even more sensible.
ReplyDeleteOden?
ReplyDeleteBecause of his quickness Seneca is a perfect 2nd qb in the years where the line cant protect and Matt is getting pounded (2006). 2008 is different story. Our line should hold up well and the guy we need behind Matt needs to be an accurate pocket qb. Our #3 should be a franchise type kid with all the talent to take over long term. Charlie Frye? your kidding right! Develop the real deal, dont just fill the spot. I do agree with MS that the timing might not be right yet, but its not far off.
ReplyDelete@chawksfan
Although it would seem to be dumb to draft a QB this year since our three guys are all under contract, I just happen to have a man-crush on Brohm. I think he's going to be special.
ReplyDeleteI didn't think twice about Buck or Stanton last season b/c I didn't see what all the fuss was about.
I don't see anyone this year that I like (besides Brohm) and that includes Ryan (could be Manning without the big forehead, could be Leaf without the moronic tendencies). I really don't see anyone that I like for next year.
I know Timmy is a heck of a lot smarter at running a franchise than I am (although I would have been smart enough to franchise Hutch and was pissed when it originally didn't happen) so whatever he does, I'm sure it will work out fine.
I just wish Brohm were in the '09 or '10 draft, as I know Matt still has some damn good years left.
bobbyk
We definitely have an interesting QB situation here in Seattle.
ReplyDeleteA starter who should have left the
league almost a decade ago if Holmgren hadn't grabbed him.
A backup who is much shorter than the average QB. And a 3rst stringer who became the first guy to get cut at his position after absolutely failing in his first first game of the season.
Isn't it great?
Now, who do we keep?
Hasslebeck--In my mind, why couldn't this guy start for another 10 years. Think about it. He has only truly started a handful of years and he was trained by the grandpa himself! The only way to extend his longevity is to get a better o-line, not better backups. Sure, lets take a QB in the draft--next year, but make him a low round pick. Or is Frye are man? Holmgren had good things to say.
Wallace--He is a very talented player with a great head. He will be an average to above-average starter in the league. But his height holds him back. But the "Mora Issue" is also a factor, I'll mention it at the bottom.
Frye--Holmgren seemed impressed by this "young man". I think he is ready to start for the Hawks and give an average performance, but I am not sure the Hawks should think of him as starting material after Hasslebeck. He will likely be out of the league by retirement when Hass. steps down--my gut feeling.
But here is the issue, the "Mora Issue". Mora's offense thrived off of Michael Vick. Vick was the best athlete, arguably, at his position in the history of the NFL. Jake Locker, Tim Tebow and Dennis Dixon (keep an eye out for him this draft) sort of players. Is he still enamored with these type of players? Who knows, but my guess is he still is because it worked out well for him (aside from the dog stuff, lol. That is where Ruskell comes in very handy).
I don't think the Hawks go first round QB. Frye is not the answer for second QB and I think they will keep seneca working as a QB even if they move him to WR for a majority of his time on the field.
ReplyDeleteDo not be mistaken about seneca's abilities. He is a pro level backup QB and has all the talent and SKILL to play WR in the NFL. Don't you remember the spectacular catch he made in the 05 NFC Championship game. That kind of catch takes skill and talent. The guy was one of the best athletes period to come out of the draft the year we picked him From Iowa ST. Not to mention one of the best talents to ever come out of that school.
Hass is at his peak and has about Five good years before his abilities start to decline. He has a great supporting cast so he hasn't been beaten up or plagued with injuries because he does not get hit all the time ( like a lot of the ex QB's that were labled as greats have. He is resiliant and tough. I remember when there was a time when people thought Hass sucked. Even Holmgren, when he had to put Dilfer back as the starter.
We definitely have to at least entertain the idea of drafting a QB because this is a business and having a fresh QB that may ride the pine for a couple of years under the tutiladge of Hass is an insurance policy. I mean look at how Hass started (riding the pine and watching Favre Start) but he learned a great deal from Favre and Holmgren and any QB that has years with Hass and at least one year with Holmgren will have an opportunity to learn from some of the best in the game.
Ok...someone needs to go to Fieldgulls.com and shut that guy up about us taking a WR in the 1rst!! WOW--there is absolutely no way we are taking a WR on day one, and I would say we aren't even taking a WR in the draft, as I would say we aren't taking a QB in the draft this year.
ReplyDeletechristopher--we have Timmay Ruskell overseeing the draft, remember? the guy could pick anyone. I wouldnt put it past him to take a kicker in the second...so a qb or wr in the first wouldnt even raise my eyebrows. I could see him do something wierd like draft a cb AGAIN, but that WOULD make me scream...
ReplyDelete-SlaveToTheBusinessman
Christopher, Just because Vick was the quarterback doesn't mean Mora and Ruskell liked him. Aurthur Blank gave him 100 mil the year before they arrived. They whole time they tried to get him to make the simple throws of the WCO and couldn't. I think they both prefer a pocket passer as opposed to the athletic spread offense quarterback.
ReplyDeleteAnd it looks like John over at Field Gulls is going to do a position by position look at who the Hawks should draft. So I am pretty sure he isn't recommending they draft Desean Jackson. I don't check that site very often, but we did link to his article where he was touting Trevor Laws, so I think that is who his first choice is.
ReplyDeleteI think the Hawks don't take BPA, they take the PMLTC (Player most likely to contribute). They will not take someone who will just sit for two years, unless injury. Maybe if there is a QB they love to they have to draft to get on their team- perhaps they do that. But remember the "wasted" QB draft picks? David Greene, the Kelly guy- these players NEVER made a contribution to the results on the field. The Hawks are fine at QB..I see it being really tough for a rookie QB to even make the team. They will not select someone unless they believe and know he will make the team ahead of Frye or Wallace. I just don't see that happening.
ReplyDeleteAs for the new hair rule- I'm for them limiting hair- or just making it fair game for it to be used to tackle with. If these guys are concerned about it, they can cut their hair.
- Papahawk
Welcome Back Papahawk!
ReplyDeleteBobbyK, I understand where you are coming from with Brohm. If he is a guy the LOVE and they think he will be better than any QB in future years, i could get on board with that. However, by working out EVERY quarterback with a similar grade, it is kind of saying we are looking at QB's and not just Brohm.
Plus, if they REALLY wanted to get him, why tell all the other teams interested that they have to trade up in front of us to get the QB of their choice?
Good points Michael about Vick.
ReplyDeleteI tend to think the same, I don't think Mora was exactly enamored with him, but it did bring him success.
I think he is a very creative play-maker, and a lot of that has stemmed from coaching Vick. Not exactly sure what to make of it, but imagine getting a guy who can run, but is accurate as well. That has my head ringing Tebow--he doesn't have the biggest arm but his accuracy is very good. Hence the 50+ TD's on air and ground. Could be Mora's man. And if he does wait until his senior season to come out, it could be perfect timing. For you guys that think he is a fluke, give him a little time. For me who thinks he is the next Maradona, I'll give him some time.
As for Fieldgulls, I do realize that he is doing a draft analysis and I did enjoy his piece greatly on Trevor Laws. But this guy is constantly naming WR's for us to take, this is not his first article, and I believe he IS endorsing us taking a WR, likely in the 2nd. I guess it wasn't all I painted it up as, but just hoping the guy would think a little objectively seeing that we have quite good depth at WR.
I agree, Mike.
ReplyDeletebobbyk
Welcome back, PapaHawk!
ReplyDeleteAnd I agree completely with limiting the ridiculous long hair.
As it stands, it is considered part of the uniform by NFL rules, which is cool: I loved seeing Polamalu go down by the hair--shades of the Chiefs Todd Blackledge's Tackle-by Mullett by the hawks D...
-SlaveToTheBusinessman